Discussion:
Sonar 7 reviews?
(too old to reply)
Neil Rutman
2007-10-01 01:39:52 UTC
Permalink
Anyone have any quality time with Sonar 7 yet. Would love to hear some
opinions.

Neil R
--
Neil Rutman
Executive Producer
Marathon Road Entertainment
"Music For Media"
www.marathonroadent.com
Neil Rutman
2007-10-01 01:44:13 UTC
Permalink
I just noticed Max's thread - basically same topic. Instead please let me
know of your stability with S7.

Neil R
--
Neil Rutman
Executive Producer
Marathon Road Entertainment
"Music For Media"
www.marathonroadent.com
Post by Neil Rutman
Anyone have any quality time with Sonar 7 yet. Would love to hear some
opinions.
Neil R
--
Neil Rutman
Executive Producer
Marathon Road Entertainment
"Music For Media"
www.marathonroadent.com
Frank l
2007-10-01 02:04:33 UTC
Permalink
Neil-As I always state, besides vocals and guitars(elec and Acc) I am all
midi until the end. All the projects that I have run in 5 & 6 Producer
without a problem, also run fine in 7. I have noticed that the CPU usage is
lower by about 33% for me.
Regardws
Frank L
Post by Neil Rutman
I just noticed Max's thread - basically same topic. Instead please let me
know of your stability with S7.
Neil R
--
Neil Rutman
Executive Producer
Marathon Road Entertainment
"Music For Media"
www.marathonroadent.com
Post by Neil Rutman
Anyone have any quality time with Sonar 7 yet. Would love to hear some
opinions.
Neil R
--
Neil Rutman
Executive Producer
Marathon Road Entertainment
"Music For Media"
www.marathonroadent.com
Max Arwood
2007-10-01 03:54:45 UTC
Permalink
I wish I had a really large midi / sampler project to run for Steve. They
have a new mode for big projects in S7. It is to conserve CPU.. You press
the pause/break key. This will slow down screen refreshes and stuff like
that to give you more horsepower. I played with S7 quite a bit. I was able
to crash it 3 times so far. Mostly some combination of Kontakt2 EZDrummer
and B4 (1 &2) These were S6 projects opened with S7. I redid the files
completely fresh in S7 and could not get it to crash. So.... I have not
been able to crash S7 on a fresh file yet, except for the waves/renverb bug.
I think I might try some of the new bounce options that might even fix the
waves bug. The new bounce mode it for when you are using hardware as
effects. It is a "realtime" bounce. Look out protools, sonar is figuring
how to slow down to your speed <g>!
Midi tools - great
Dim Solo - nice
V-Vocal to midi - never used it because it kept crashing my computer.
Multiple lanes in Controler view - very nice
Midi volume meters - Volume or average velocity - not sure exactly (acts
like volume of audio) or activity - shown on the tip of the meter
I put a soft synth audio out and midi beside each other just to look at the
midi/audio meters. I was surprised how close they were. Sometimes I get
confused I think I am looking at audio when I am loking at midi - might
need different colors for midi meters.
Step Sequencer - I already have Fruity Loops - I think both are toys. I
have to admit I have used a couple of beats I did in Fruity not an everyday
thing.
MIDI Magnifier - can't decide. Sometimes it's just in the way. If it were
a little bigger (not more magnification - larger area in magnifier, I think
it would be fine.)
LP-64 Multiband - I already have Waves stuff don't need
Internal sidechaining - been doing sidechaining for years already
Boost 11 Peak Limiter - I have Waves L3LL - it's Killer. I would be
surprised if boost11 was as good. I am going to check this one out later,
only because it is 64bit top to bottom
Velociry Colorizer - really nice. I read an article by Anderton. He said
the same thing I did. It's nice, only wish it stood out more. It's not
very visible with some colors. Have not found out worst / best colors yet.

I still have more to play with. I am waiting for the list of "small" stuff.
These thing are the little stuff that cake does but does not advertize.
Sometimes these are very important stuff. I saw a small likst but I can't
remember what was on it. I do remember that one of those was important to
me. There has been a few little glitches, I'm gonna start a notepad list
the next time I see some of this stuff.

You should check out Craig Andertons reviews too.

Max Arwood
Post by Neil Rutman
Anyone have any quality time with Sonar 7 yet. Would love to hear some
opinions.
Neil R
--
Neil Rutman
Executive Producer
Marathon Road Entertainment
"Music For Media"
www.marathonroadent.com
Glennbo
2007-10-01 04:17:15 UTC
Permalink
In news:3c_Li.3001$***@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com the killer robot "Max
Arwood" <***@hnb.com> grabbed the controls of the spaceship
cakewalk.audio and pressed these buttons...
Post by Max Arwood
These were S6 projects opened with S7.
If you open a "pre S7 project that has both track view *and* console view,
is the console view totally FUBAR like it has been in every incremental
incarnation of Sonar? I freeking hate how there has never been any
backward compatibility to open older projects, and how the console view
doesn't even resemble the project as it was in the previous version.
--
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Max Arwood
2007-10-01 04:38:46 UTC
Permalink
I had to go check to be sure...
Yes.
I always use a full screen track and a full screen console views. I opened
up a couple and they looked the same.
One thing I hate is the the track zoom feature. It has never been the same
when you open in the next version. Do you use that? On the bar that
seperates the clips form the track adjustments. You click and hold down the
mouse button. While it is down roll the mouse up. This will make the audio
clips look bigger. It makes it very easy to find the right place to cut /
edit etc.
Well I'll be darn. They even got this to work from 6 to 7. Looks like they
added no no no I just found DB / % / zoom factor. I just did not notice it
in S6.

Max Arwood
Post by Glennbo
cakewalk.audio and pressed these buttons...
Post by Max Arwood
These were S6 projects opened with S7.
If you open a "pre S7 project that has both track view *and* console view,
is the console view totally FUBAR like it has been in every incremental
incarnation of Sonar? I freeking hate how there has never been any
backward compatibility to open older projects, and how the console view
doesn't even resemble the project as it was in the previous version.
--
Remove YourHeadFromYourAss to Reply by email
________ ____
/ ____/ /__ ____ ____ / __ )____
/ / __/ / _ \/ __ \/ __ \/ __ / __ \
/ /_/ / / __/ / / / / / / /_/ / /_/ /
\____/_/\___/_/ /_/_/ /_/_____/\____/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Glennbo http://www.soundclick.com/glennbo
Non-Linear Sound http://www.soundclick.com/jambits
Hear My Music http://www.soundclick.com/ThePseudonyms
Frank l
2007-10-02 03:32:30 UTC
Permalink
OK- NOW I have Dimension LE disappearing from the vst menu? It's no where to
be found. i had posted about having trouble playing a midi file with
dimension le and rapture le. Midi activity (avccording to the new track
lights for midi) but no output. So now it just DISAPPEARS? So it isn't just
me. Their is a major problem here.

I'll report back

FRank L
Post by Neil Rutman
Anyone have any quality time with Sonar 7 yet. Would love to hear some
opinions.
Neil R
--
Neil Rutman
Executive Producer
Marathon Road Entertainment
"Music For Media"
www.marathonroadent.com
Frank l
2007-10-02 03:41:46 UTC
Permalink
PS Dimension LE is listed in the plug mgr as a VST AUDIO effect??????
Post by Frank l
OK- NOW I have Dimension LE disappearing from the vst menu? It's no where
to be found. i had posted about having trouble playing a midi file with
dimension le and rapture le. Midi activity (avccording to the new track
lights for midi) but no output. So now it just DISAPPEARS? So it isn't
just me. Their is a major problem here.
I'll report back
FRank L
Post by Neil Rutman
Anyone have any quality time with Sonar 7 yet. Would love to hear some
opinions.
Neil R
--
Neil Rutman
Executive Producer
Marathon Road Entertainment
"Music For Media"
www.marathonroadent.com
Gerry Peters
2007-10-02 05:31:34 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 18:39:52 -0700, "Neil Rutman"
Post by Neil Rutman
Anyone have any quality time with Sonar 7 yet. Would love to hear some
opinions.
Neil R
So far I'm pleased with the stability after about 4 hours of use. Most
other versions, I couldn't use before the first update.

One little quirk in 6.0 that has bugged me is fixed with no mention in
the readme file. When you hit play using 6.x Sonar backs up maybe a
millisecond or several samples. This made it a little tricky to find a
noise or portion of a sound, when doing a surgical edit. With 7.0 it
starts right where you have the curser.

Gerry Peters
Rick Paul
2007-10-03 08:27:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil Rutman
Anyone have any quality time with Sonar 7 yet. Would love to hear some
opinions.
Okay, my SONAR 7 Producer upgrade came late this morning. It was probably
bad timing as I was really wanting to finish up a "quick" remix (mainly
fader automation and remastering in this case), and I really didn't "need"
to distract myself from that. ;-) Anyway, here are some quick first
impressions:

Installation: Pretty painless. I think it took about 10 minutes total to
copy all the files, including all the synth content (on the order of 3GB, I
think), from the DVD. I was glad it gave an explicit chance to choose
different content folders for the synths. When it got to the first run,
where it lets you specify your previous versions preference file, I was
surprised that, even when you are selecting a preference file, it defaults
to not keeping your earlier default folder assignments. I'm glad I noticed
that, though, as it's easy enough to override. That seems counterintuitive,
though. I also noted it still did not preserve my toolbar layout. Or at
least not all of it -- it did keep the vertical views toolbar on the
left-hand side of my screen, but the horizontal part of the toolbars across
the top of the screen lost the components I'd put on there and just had a
few others that I hadn't had in my setup. Of course, maybe that the views
toolbar was where I had it was just coincidence, too. S6 also hadn't
preserved toolbar layouts, so maybe this shouldn't be a surprise.

Updated look: While S7 looks very similar to S6 in many respects, one thing
I immediately noticed was the buttons on the toolbars have what looks to me
like a very different style. If you look at them as 3-dimensional buttons,
I think they probably look higher and more rounded. They also seem to be
yet more monochrom (I didn't even think that was possible), with mostly
white graphics on a dark background or, when a button is lighted in light
blue, black graphics on a lighted, light blue background. I find the new
look of the buttons a bit harder to read than before, and that was already
one of my pet peeves about recent versions of SONAR. When graphics are
necessarily small to fit on small buttons, a splash of color can really be
helpful for quick readability, and lighting effects can also distract as
they can tend to make the white of the graphic blend in more with the dark
gray of the button background. For example, in the Views toolbar, the Track
View, Synth Rack, and Video View buttons look way too similar to me at quick
glance, and having to look closer slows me down. I suppose I'll get used to
this over time, but I really wish I didn't have to. I guess the old MS
Office 97-style buttons with strategic bits of color, which Windows XP still
uses for its small icons in menus, aren't sexy enough for musicians or
something, but they sure are a helluva lot more readable at quick glance.

Reliability/Stability: Definitely no complaints here thus far. I picked up
exactly where I left off in my remix project, which is purely frozen audio
plus some bus effects at this point, with lots of detailed fader automation.
I probably spent at least 3 or 4 hours working on that with no glitches of
any sort. I feel pretty safe committing to SONAR 7 file format with this
project, even in its very late stages. (I had saved a S6.2.1 CWP before
starting with S7, just in case, but I doubt it will ever get used.) At one
point I'd also opened up a second project just to try futzing around with
some of SONAR 7's new features to at least do a little bit of curiosity
satisfying. I probably got distracted for an hour or so, mostly playing
around with the new mastering plug-ins and checking out some of the MIDI
view-oriented enhancements. In some past versions of SONAR having multiple
projects open has increased the odds of stability issues, but things still
seemed rock solid here.

LP64_EQ/LP64_Multiband/Boost 11: After having recently done a CakewalkNet
review of PSP MasterPack, including its Neon linear phase equalizer, I was
very curious how these new plug-ins would do. I haven't had enough time
playing with them yet to render any kind of real verdict, but my first
impressions are reasonably good with one exception. When you move the nodes
of the EQ curve around on LP64_EQ, there are decided audio artifacts, which
are quite distracting. When I mentioned this to a colleage at CakewalkNet
(I'm going to be reviewing SONAR 7 for CakewalkNet, with the review likely
to land sometime in the second half of November), he mentioned having seen a
similar note on the public forums, and that Cakewalk had replied that they
intend to fix that in the first patch. I was also disappointed that there
were no presets in either of linear phase plug-ins. Actually, there is a
bank of presets in an FXB file for LP_EQ, but it only seems to add one
default preset. I know mastering engineers are supposed to use their ears,
but, for less than golden-eared types like me, a few starter presets,
especially for a multiband compressor, can be helpful for trying a few
different stock settings to get in the ballpark. The visual feedback Boost
11 gives you on what it is squashing is really helpful. I only wish that
part of the plug-in's display were significantly larger. My first
impression on sound quality was that these plug-ins sounded pretty
transparent, which is a good thing in this context. In particular, when I
shifted up to the mastering stage of my project, which was now at 96 kHz (I
don't recall if the mix stage was at 44.1k or 48k), I was initially just
using some Ozone 3 settings I'd used on the original version of the project.
Then I turned that off and tried the three new Cakewalk plug-ins to see if I
could achieve a similar effect. I ran out of time, and definitely would
need more time messing around with both EQ and multiband compressor settings
to fine tune things to the project, but my initial impression was that the
version with the new Cakewalk plug-ins might well end up sounding better.
(When I get back to that project, most likely tomorrow, I will probably also
try comparing to using PSP MasterPack in this context. Of course, these
options aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. For example, PSP Neon HR
could be used as the linear phase EQ while using LP_64 Multiband for
multiband compression.)

MIDI microscope: I think that is what it was called, but, if not, this is
the feature that magnifies a portion of the PRV or TPRV when you hover the
mouse over it. It seems helpful for locating notes, but then the movement,
should you try to actually modify a note, say to drag it higher in pitch or
shift it a bit in time, seems like it is still subject to the original
magnification (or lack thereof in this context). I didn't have a lot of
time to play with this, so I'm not sure I'm correct on this, but, if I am,
it would seem that it may be more a feature for locating problem areas than
for also making quick repairs as it could make it too easy to do damage by
too coarse of movements. I also kind of wish the magnified area had a
border around it, like the rim of a magnifying glass, to make it clearer
where the magnified area is versus the background, or perhaps that it just
shaded things slightly to make a similar distinction.

That was pretty much it from my first 4-5 hour session. Then tonight I
started S7 up again, this time just to play a bit with the new softsynths,
especially Rapture LE, Z3ta+, and the Garritan Pocket Orchestra section of
Dimension LE. I'll definitely want to spend more time playing with Rapture
and Z3ta+ (I've already spent quite a bit of time with the original
Dimension from Project5 V2, so I don't feel as compelled to spend more time
playing with Dimension at the moment), but here are my first impressions:

Rapture LE: This seems to be able to make some incredibily rich sounds with
various types of motion incorporated. It's the sort of stuff that might
well inspire playing and composition, though it's also the sort of stuff
that I probably won't find lots of use for in my normal musical genres (that
is true of most synths, so it isn't a dig on Rapture). One thing I did
notice is many (most?) of the sounds I tried seemed to get a lot of noise,
similar to zipper noise or noise from mismatched digital clocks, in the face
of a constantly changing tempo map. That isn't something I usually use, but
one of the sounds I was playing somehow inspired me to experiment with
recording "The Star-Spangled Banner", so I initially recorded that to a
metronome with that sound, then pasted in a tempo map from another MIDI file
from some third party GM orchestral rendition of the same song. I'm
guessing that is one of the side effects of time-based motion programming in
the sounds, and there were at least one or two sounds I found that didn't
have that sort of issue (e.g. one organ sound).

Dimension LE with Garritan Pocket Orchestra: The pocket subset of GPO seems
well chosen for usefulness, with solo and section string sounds, solo and
section woodwinds, solo brass, and various other sounds (e.g. harp,
harpsichord, percussion). Unlike the real GPO, you don't have to learn
special playing techniques such as using the mod wheel for volume on string
and wind instruments, so this should bring immediate satisfaction for the
casual user, and the sounds do respond to expression pedal, so that should
be helpful for varying volume over time. The setup with the woodwind
sections was quite interesting. Instead of having, say, a clarinet section,
they had ensembles of, for example, bassoon, clarinet, and flute. When
played polyphonically, these combinations felt quite reasonable to my ears.
That could be particularly helpful for situations where you're going for a
quick result, and don't necessarily need to end up with something that could
be played by a real orchestra, but still feels reasonably like an orchestra.
Of course, the biggest downside is that you can only have one sound (be it a
solo sound or section sound) per instance of Dimension LE. I might add that
many of the Dimension sounds I tried were susceptible to the same issue I
mentioned above for Rapture LE with the continuously variable tempo map, but
the Garritan sounds were not affected by that. That would seem to confirm
that it is likely an issue of clock-synchronized motion programming.

Z3ta+: I didn't spend as much time with this one as with the other two. It
felt more digital in character than Rapture, and there was definitely some
creative programming. The patch browsing interface for this, which might
well be described as a lack of patch browsing interface, or maybe a
randomized patch browser -- there are submenus of sets of patches, but they
don't appear to be organized functionally, or even alphabetically, as far as
I can tell thus far -- made it more or less a throw of the dice as to what
you got with any sound, but the sounds I did hear felt interesting/creative.
They also reminded me somewhat of PSYN, though I wasn't comparing them
side-by-side or anything. I'll want to check this out in more detail when I
have more playing time, and maybe some time to figure out if there is a
better way to approach looking for sounds of some specific function (e.g.
pads versus leads versus basses) or character (e.g. warm versus biting
versus...).

At one point I had all three of these synths going, playing the same actual
MIDI sequence, but with very different sounds. I decided I'd try to
simulate a mix, so I panned two of them to the opposite sides, the other
centered, set up a reverb bus with PerfectSpace and sent each of the synths
to it. I think I also had Boost 11 on the master bus. So far so good.
Then I decided to try and put LP64_Multiband on the master bus ahead of
Boost 11. Well, first thing was I got audio dropping out, so I took my ASIO
latency up from 4 ms, which I generally use for tracking, to 50 ms, which I
generally use for editing, mixing, and mastering. That got things playing,
but then there was some kind of fluttering noise, kind of like a toy
helicopter blade or sound through a fan or something, going on. I never did
quite figure out why that was happening, but it seemed to relate to having
the combination of ingredients there. Even when I removed PerfectSpace,
thus just having the reverb bus signal and the original verison of the same
signal being mixed together, the fluttering was still there. This was on
the project with the continuous tempo change, so maybe it is related to that
somehow, though I hadn't heard the artifacts I'd been getting earlier with
those specific sounds, so that also seems questionable. Muting some of the
sounds seemed to at least lessen the effect, though I'm not sure if it
entirely removed it (it may have just lowered the volume of it significantly
with the last sound standing). Very strange. This was at 44.1 kHz, by the
way.

In any event, that is all the time I had for tonight. If there is any
summary to this point, I guess it would be that S7 seems stable thus far, so
I don't have any significant X.0 release concerns at the moment, I think I'm
going to really enjoy playing with the new synth toys when I get some time,
and the mastering plug-ins might well end up being very interesting,
especially for someone who doesn't already have mastering bundles from other
vendors like Waves or PSP or iZotope (and the 64-bit plug-in interfaces are
an advantage over Waves and iZotope, too -- PSP does have 64-bit plug-in
interfaces).

Rick
--
=======================================
Rick Paul
Closet Cowboy Music (ASCAP)
Web: www.RickPaul.info
MySpace: www.myspace.com/rickpaulmusic
=======================================
R. Lamar Duffy
2007-10-03 11:54:10 UTC
Permalink
Rick,

Thanks for your detailed notes.

I esp agree w/ your comments on presets for the multiband compressor. That
has always been the hardest effect for me to dial in, or explain to other
people how to use, since, when you use it right, you really shouldn't "hear"
it (vs missing it if you turn it off).

Lamar
Rick Paul
2007-10-03 16:28:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by R. Lamar Duffy
I esp agree w/ your comments on presets for the multiband compressor.
That has always been the hardest effect for me to dial in, or explain to
other
Yeah, definitely. I think partly because there are just so many settings.
For the full 5 bands, you have at least 4 frequencies to set -- typically
the crossover frequencies between bands, but with LP64_multiband it looks
like you are setting center frequencies for each band instead, then it must
be calculating the crossover points or something. (Note: I haven't read the
documentation yet. That is just what it looks like from the interface and
the controls I found to set.) Then, for each band, you get threshold,
ratio, attack, release, and gain -- that's another 25 settings right there!
Post by R. Lamar Duffy
people how to use, since, when you use it right, you really shouldn't
"hear" it (vs missing it if you turn it off).
One thing I tried was just painstakingly copying settings from one of the
presets in Sonitus:fx Multiband, though, because of the frequency thing I
mentioned, I'm not confident I actually ended up with the same setup. Also,
there is no "knee" setting or "vintage" versus "normal" curve behavior on
LP64_multiband, so that would make the various interactions of the other
controls work differently anyway. Differences in controls aside, that was
one area where it definitely seemed like LP64_multiband had greater
transparency. Of course, sometimes you want "a sound", too, so it depends
on context.

Rick
--
=======================================
Rick Paul
Closet Cowboy Music (ASCAP)
Web: www.RickPaul.info
MySpace: www.myspace.com/rickpaulmusic
=======================================
Gerry Peters
2007-10-04 06:14:40 UTC
Permalink
with 3 days of full time use, I've had no problems at all with 7.0.
I've done all of the normal tasks I do, recording midi and audio,
mixing, editing and tuning vocals, cutting and pasting, importing
exporting, etc. I think this is the most stable bug free .0 version
Cakewalk has ever put out. Let's hope I'm not being premature, but so
far I'm very pleased and like the new features

Gerry Peters


On Wed, 3 Oct 2007 01:27:52 -0700, "Rick Paul"
Post by Rick Paul
Post by Neil Rutman
Anyone have any quality time with Sonar 7 yet. Would love to hear some
opinions.
Okay, my SONAR 7 Producer upgrade came late this morning. It was probably
bad timing as I was really wanting to finish up a "quick" remix (mainly
fader automation and remastering in this case), and I really didn't "need"
to distract myself from that. ;-) Anyway, here are some quick first
Installation: Pretty painless. I think it took about 10 minutes total to
copy all the files, including all the synth content (on the order of 3GB, I
think), from the DVD. I was glad it gave an explicit chance to choose
different content folders for the synths. When it got to the first run,
where it lets you specify your previous versions preference file, I was
surprised that, even when you are selecting a preference file, it defaults
to not keeping your earlier default folder assignments. I'm glad I noticed
that, though, as it's easy enough to override. That seems counterintuitive,
though. I also noted it still did not preserve my toolbar layout. Or at
least not all of it -- it did keep the vertical views toolbar on the
left-hand side of my screen, but the horizontal part of the toolbars across
the top of the screen lost the components I'd put on there and just had a
few others that I hadn't had in my setup. Of course, maybe that the views
toolbar was where I had it was just coincidence, too. S6 also hadn't
preserved toolbar layouts, so maybe this shouldn't be a surprise.
Updated look: While S7 looks very similar to S6 in many respects, one thing
I immediately noticed was the buttons on the toolbars have what looks to me
like a very different style. If you look at them as 3-dimensional buttons,
I think they probably look higher and more rounded. They also seem to be
yet more monochrom (I didn't even think that was possible), with mostly
white graphics on a dark background or, when a button is lighted in light
blue, black graphics on a lighted, light blue background. I find the new
look of the buttons a bit harder to read than before, and that was already
one of my pet peeves about recent versions of SONAR. When graphics are
necessarily small to fit on small buttons, a splash of color can really be
helpful for quick readability, and lighting effects can also distract as
they can tend to make the white of the graphic blend in more with the dark
gray of the button background. For example, in the Views toolbar, the Track
View, Synth Rack, and Video View buttons look way too similar to me at quick
glance, and having to look closer slows me down. I suppose I'll get used to
this over time, but I really wish I didn't have to. I guess the old MS
Office 97-style buttons with strategic bits of color, which Windows XP still
uses for its small icons in menus, aren't sexy enough for musicians or
something, but they sure are a helluva lot more readable at quick glance.
Reliability/Stability: Definitely no complaints here thus far. I picked up
exactly where I left off in my remix project, which is purely frozen audio
plus some bus effects at this point, with lots of detailed fader automation.
I probably spent at least 3 or 4 hours working on that with no glitches of
any sort. I feel pretty safe committing to SONAR 7 file format with this
project, even in its very late stages. (I had saved a S6.2.1 CWP before
starting with S7, just in case, but I doubt it will ever get used.) At one
point I'd also opened up a second project just to try futzing around with
some of SONAR 7's new features to at least do a little bit of curiosity
satisfying. I probably got distracted for an hour or so, mostly playing
around with the new mastering plug-ins and checking out some of the MIDI
view-oriented enhancements. In some past versions of SONAR having multiple
projects open has increased the odds of stability issues, but things still
seemed rock solid here.
LP64_EQ/LP64_Multiband/Boost 11: After having recently done a CakewalkNet
review of PSP MasterPack, including its Neon linear phase equalizer, I was
very curious how these new plug-ins would do. I haven't had enough time
playing with them yet to render any kind of real verdict, but my first
impressions are reasonably good with one exception. When you move the nodes
of the EQ curve around on LP64_EQ, there are decided audio artifacts, which
are quite distracting. When I mentioned this to a colleage at CakewalkNet
(I'm going to be reviewing SONAR 7 for CakewalkNet, with the review likely
to land sometime in the second half of November), he mentioned having seen a
similar note on the public forums, and that Cakewalk had replied that they
intend to fix that in the first patch. I was also disappointed that there
were no presets in either of linear phase plug-ins. Actually, there is a
bank of presets in an FXB file for LP_EQ, but it only seems to add one
default preset. I know mastering engineers are supposed to use their ears,
but, for less than golden-eared types like me, a few starter presets,
especially for a multiband compressor, can be helpful for trying a few
different stock settings to get in the ballpark. The visual feedback Boost
11 gives you on what it is squashing is really helpful. I only wish that
part of the plug-in's display were significantly larger. My first
impression on sound quality was that these plug-ins sounded pretty
transparent, which is a good thing in this context. In particular, when I
shifted up to the mastering stage of my project, which was now at 96 kHz (I
don't recall if the mix stage was at 44.1k or 48k), I was initially just
using some Ozone 3 settings I'd used on the original version of the project.
Then I turned that off and tried the three new Cakewalk plug-ins to see if I
could achieve a similar effect. I ran out of time, and definitely would
need more time messing around with both EQ and multiband compressor settings
to fine tune things to the project, but my initial impression was that the
version with the new Cakewalk plug-ins might well end up sounding better.
(When I get back to that project, most likely tomorrow, I will probably also
try comparing to using PSP MasterPack in this context. Of course, these
options aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. For example, PSP Neon HR
could be used as the linear phase EQ while using LP_64 Multiband for
multiband compression.)
MIDI microscope: I think that is what it was called, but, if not, this is
the feature that magnifies a portion of the PRV or TPRV when you hover the
mouse over it. It seems helpful for locating notes, but then the movement,
should you try to actually modify a note, say to drag it higher in pitch or
shift it a bit in time, seems like it is still subject to the original
magnification (or lack thereof in this context). I didn't have a lot of
time to play with this, so I'm not sure I'm correct on this, but, if I am,
it would seem that it may be more a feature for locating problem areas than
for also making quick repairs as it could make it too easy to do damage by
too coarse of movements. I also kind of wish the magnified area had a
border around it, like the rim of a magnifying glass, to make it clearer
where the magnified area is versus the background, or perhaps that it just
shaded things slightly to make a similar distinction.
That was pretty much it from my first 4-5 hour session. Then tonight I
started S7 up again, this time just to play a bit with the new softsynths,
especially Rapture LE, Z3ta+, and the Garritan Pocket Orchestra section of
Dimension LE. I'll definitely want to spend more time playing with Rapture
and Z3ta+ (I've already spent quite a bit of time with the original
Dimension from Project5 V2, so I don't feel as compelled to spend more time
Rapture LE: This seems to be able to make some incredibily rich sounds with
various types of motion incorporated. It's the sort of stuff that might
well inspire playing and composition, though it's also the sort of stuff
that I probably won't find lots of use for in my normal musical genres (that
is true of most synths, so it isn't a dig on Rapture). One thing I did
notice is many (most?) of the sounds I tried seemed to get a lot of noise,
similar to zipper noise or noise from mismatched digital clocks, in the face
of a constantly changing tempo map. That isn't something I usually use, but
one of the sounds I was playing somehow inspired me to experiment with
recording "The Star-Spangled Banner", so I initially recorded that to a
metronome with that sound, then pasted in a tempo map from another MIDI file
from some third party GM orchestral rendition of the same song. I'm
guessing that is one of the side effects of time-based motion programming in
the sounds, and there were at least one or two sounds I found that didn't
have that sort of issue (e.g. one organ sound).
Dimension LE with Garritan Pocket Orchestra: The pocket subset of GPO seems
well chosen for usefulness, with solo and section string sounds, solo and
section woodwinds, solo brass, and various other sounds (e.g. harp,
harpsichord, percussion). Unlike the real GPO, you don't have to learn
special playing techniques such as using the mod wheel for volume on string
and wind instruments, so this should bring immediate satisfaction for the
casual user, and the sounds do respond to expression pedal, so that should
be helpful for varying volume over time. The setup with the woodwind
sections was quite interesting. Instead of having, say, a clarinet section,
they had ensembles of, for example, bassoon, clarinet, and flute. When
played polyphonically, these combinations felt quite reasonable to my ears.
That could be particularly helpful for situations where you're going for a
quick result, and don't necessarily need to end up with something that could
be played by a real orchestra, but still feels reasonably like an orchestra.
Of course, the biggest downside is that you can only have one sound (be it a
solo sound or section sound) per instance of Dimension LE. I might add that
many of the Dimension sounds I tried were susceptible to the same issue I
mentioned above for Rapture LE with the continuously variable tempo map, but
the Garritan sounds were not affected by that. That would seem to confirm
that it is likely an issue of clock-synchronized motion programming.
Z3ta+: I didn't spend as much time with this one as with the other two. It
felt more digital in character than Rapture, and there was definitely some
creative programming. The patch browsing interface for this, which might
well be described as a lack of patch browsing interface, or maybe a
randomized patch browser -- there are submenus of sets of patches, but they
don't appear to be organized functionally, or even alphabetically, as far as
I can tell thus far -- made it more or less a throw of the dice as to what
you got with any sound, but the sounds I did hear felt interesting/creative.
They also reminded me somewhat of PSYN, though I wasn't comparing them
side-by-side or anything. I'll want to check this out in more detail when I
have more playing time, and maybe some time to figure out if there is a
better way to approach looking for sounds of some specific function (e.g.
pads versus leads versus basses) or character (e.g. warm versus biting
versus...).
At one point I had all three of these synths going, playing the same actual
MIDI sequence, but with very different sounds. I decided I'd try to
simulate a mix, so I panned two of them to the opposite sides, the other
centered, set up a reverb bus with PerfectSpace and sent each of the synths
to it. I think I also had Boost 11 on the master bus. So far so good.
Then I decided to try and put LP64_Multiband on the master bus ahead of
Boost 11. Well, first thing was I got audio dropping out, so I took my ASIO
latency up from 4 ms, which I generally use for tracking, to 50 ms, which I
generally use for editing, mixing, and mastering. That got things playing,
but then there was some kind of fluttering noise, kind of like a toy
helicopter blade or sound through a fan or something, going on. I never did
quite figure out why that was happening, but it seemed to relate to having
the combination of ingredients there. Even when I removed PerfectSpace,
thus just having the reverb bus signal and the original verison of the same
signal being mixed together, the fluttering was still there. This was on
the project with the continuous tempo change, so maybe it is related to that
somehow, though I hadn't heard the artifacts I'd been getting earlier with
those specific sounds, so that also seems questionable. Muting some of the
sounds seemed to at least lessen the effect, though I'm not sure if it
entirely removed it (it may have just lowered the volume of it significantly
with the last sound standing). Very strange. This was at 44.1 kHz, by the
way.
In any event, that is all the time I had for tonight. If there is any
summary to this point, I guess it would be that S7 seems stable thus far, so
I don't have any significant X.0 release concerns at the moment, I think I'm
going to really enjoy playing with the new synth toys when I get some time,
and the mastering plug-ins might well end up being very interesting,
especially for someone who doesn't already have mastering bundles from other
vendors like Waves or PSP or iZotope (and the 64-bit plug-in interfaces are
an advantage over Waves and iZotope, too -- PSP does have 64-bit plug-in
interfaces).
Rick
Rick Paul
2007-10-04 07:38:09 UTC
Permalink
A few more observations from further SONAR 7 use today:

Basically, I spent at least half a day working on a mastering project at
64-bit/96 kHz with no issues. I also did end up using the LP64_Multiband in
the signal chain, alongside a bunch of PSP MasterPack plug-ins, just leaving
the LP64_Multiband on its default settings for this project. I think the
end signal chain was PSP MasterComp for some light expansion of the original
mix, PSP Neon HR for linear phase EQ (I might have tried the LP64_EQ more,
but the issue with adjusting it and getting audio artifacts when dragging
the curve points that I mentioned yesterday was just too annoying), LP_64
Multiband, then another instance of PSP MasterComp for final loudness tweaks
and limiting. I tried replacing the last instance of MasterComp with Boost
11 a few times, but MasterComp just sounded way more transparent to me,
despite it's being doing more than just raising volume and limiting.

Beyond that project, I tried experimenting in two other areas:

Corrupt file project recovery: I had an early SONAR (not positive which
version off the top of my head, though I was thinking SONAR 1) CWB file that
I'd had trouble reading off a CD archive. The CD had obviously gotten
corrupted, though I did use some freeware software that somehow thought it
managed to read the ISO image from the CD then break out the CWB file from
the ISO image. (Just trying to read the CD normally, I'd been able to copy
off a number of other files just fine, but this particular one always gave
me an error.) I hadn't been able to load the extracted CWB in SONAR 6,
getting an error that said it was incompatible with this version of SONAR,
so I was wondering if the new facilities to recover corrupt files might
help. Nope. Same error message. Oh well... I think this may be a hard
capability to test in general because corrupt SONAR files aren't common, and
it may well be that this specific case went beyond the level of SONAR doing
something nasty in the face of stability issues (i.e. since I couldn't even
read it off the CD archive directly with Windows Explorer). I have ot say,
though, I'd have been really impressed if it had been able to recover the
file. ;-)

Sidechaining: This stuff really is cool! I actually had to read the
documentation to figure out how to make this work as my first attempts at
figuring it out on my own didn't lead anywhere. The key is you have to
first insert the plug-in that has sidechain capabilities wherever you are
intending to use it. For example, in my first test case, I put Sonitus:fx
gate in the FX bin of a synth pad track, initially with Rapture LE. Once
you've done that, the sidechain input of the effect is available as a bus to
other tracks and buses. In this case, I went to a drum loop track, did an
Insert Send, then picked the sidechain for the gate on the Rapture track.
After enabling the send (I also set it to pre-fader so any manipulations of
the volume or processing on the drum track wouldn't affect the gate), I went
back to the relevant instance of the gate plug-in, adjusted it to taste,
and, voila, instant rhythmic pad effect, which I could tune to taste using
the sidechain filtering in the gate plug-in (e.g. to make it only trigger
off the kick drum or the hi-hat). Very cool. I also tried a similar setup
with PSP MasterComp, only obviously not for a gated pad, but rather more
like a somewhat pulsating pad, this time with TTS-1. It also worked great.
Trying the same thing with Sonitus:fx compressor got the right effect on the
pad, but also introduced a static-like background noise, perhaps similar to
what I'd mentioned yesterday in the scenario with the three softsynths being
mixed with PerfectSpace and the LP64_Multiband. In today's case, there
definitely was no moving tempo map -- it was just a very simple test project
with 8 measures of whole note chords in the pad part and a one-measure drum
loop stretched for the full 8 measures. I also muted the drum loop track
(the side chain send was set to pre-fader) so I could just hear the effect
on the synth pad, and the static was definitely coming into play there. I'm
not sure what the deal is there. Something that will need further
investigation to determine whether it is just a Sonitus:fx compressor
problem or some more general problem. On the one hand, not having seen the
same problem with Sonitus:fx gate or PSP MasterComp might lead me to believe
it was specific to Sonitus:fx compressor. On the other hand, having heard
what seemed to me to be possibly similar artifacts yesterday with the one
test project might suggest something a bit more general (and I wasn't using
any Sonitus effects at the time). One other note on the sidechaining: If
you delete the sidechainable effect, the any sends you had created to route
to it also get deleted. I think this is a good thing in general, but I can
also see where it might cause a few "user error" type scenarios in cases
where, for example, someone wanted to replace one sidechainable gate or
compressor with another, but deleted the first one before switching the
relevent sends to point to the second one. They'd then have to recreate a
new send for each use, turn it on, and make any send level and panning
adjustments. Whereas a simpler way to handle this, if you realize how this
works, would be to make all the send reassignments first, thus preserving
all the send settings, then delete the first effect.

So, just to add to my thoughts of yesterday: Still seeming really stable,
and the sidechaining implementation is tres cool!!!

Rick
--
=======================================
Rick Paul
Closet Cowboy Music (ASCAP)
Web: www.RickPaul.info
MySpace: www.myspace.com/rickpaulmusic
=======================================
Rick Paul
2007-10-05 07:15:37 UTC
Permalink
Another day of S7 use, mostly in a mastering context. Not a whole lot of
new observations, but one biggie, at least for me:

They FINALLY fixed the bug in the Mute tool where the cursor wasn't changing
(at least in Mute Entire Clips mode, which is what I use pretty much all the
time -- not sure about in Mute Time Range mode), so you couldn't tell at a
glance if you were in Select tool mode or Mute tool mode. I don't know why
that one took so long, but I'm glad they got it right in S7 (it was fine in
S5, too -- it is S6 that broke it).

Also, one thing I forgot about from the other day:

Dim Solo: Yeah, this is excellent, though, like someone else mentioned
earlier (Max or Neil?), I do wish they'd give more options for how much to
lower the other tracks. In particular, I set it to 18dB, but I'd like to be
able to set it to lower it even more, at least at times. I also which they
would let you right click on the Dim Solo button in the Playback State
toolbar to tweak the range. It took me awhile to figure out you do that in
Audio Options. Finally, I wish they put the Dim Solo button on the Large
Transport so I didn't need to keep the Playback State toolbar open as I've
never used it before -- all the other functions I use from it are duplicated
in the status bar. I suppose now that tool bars are customizable (that was
an S6 thing, but I haven't used it yet), I could always just add it
somewhere else.

Rick
--
=======================================
Rick Paul
Closet Cowboy Music (ASCAP)
Web: www.RickPaul.info
MySpace: www.myspace.com/rickpaulmusic
=======================================
Max Arwood
2007-10-05 15:17:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rick Paul
Dim Solo: Yeah, this is excellent, though, like someone else mentioned
earlier (Max or Neil?), I do wish they'd give more options for how much to
lower the other tracks.
Yea that was my first complant. Don't know why they used 3 fixed variable
settings when it should have been a slider or at least more choices than 3.
All that said it is still nice.
Max Arwood
Post by Rick Paul
Another day of S7 use, mostly in a mastering context. Not a whole lot of
They FINALLY fixed the bug in the Mute tool where the cursor wasn't
changing (at least in Mute Entire Clips mode, which is what I use pretty
much all the time -- not sure about in Mute Time Range mode), so you
couldn't tell at a glance if you were in Select tool mode or Mute tool
mode. I don't know why that one took so long, but I'm glad they got it
right in S7 (it was fine in S5, too -- it is S6 that broke it).
Dim Solo: Yeah, this is excellent, though, like someone else mentioned
earlier (Max or Neil?), I do wish they'd give more options for how much to
lower the other tracks. In particular, I set it to 18dB, but I'd like to
be able to set it to lower it even more, at least at times. I also which
they would let you right click on the Dim Solo button in the Playback
State toolbar to tweak the range. It took me awhile to figure out you do
that in Audio Options. Finally, I wish they put the Dim Solo button on
the Large Transport so I didn't need to keep the Playback State toolbar
open as I've never used it before -- all the other functions I use from it
are duplicated in the status bar. I suppose now that tool bars are
customizable (that was an S6 thing, but I haven't used it yet), I could
always just add it somewhere else.
Rick
--
=======================================
Rick Paul
Closet Cowboy Music (ASCAP)
Web: www.RickPaul.info
MySpace: www.myspace.com/rickpaulmusic
=======================================
Rick Paul
2007-10-06 00:42:08 UTC
Permalink
Well, today I got my first bonafide SONAR 7 crash. I'd just adjusted the
ASIO latency from 4ms to 50ms, running at 44.1kHz, then hit Play, and boom.
From the Dr. Watson log, it looks like a similar crash to what I've
experienced many times in SONAR 6, with the fault address, if I'm reading
the log correctly, being ntdll!KiFastSystemCallRet. Softsynths in play at
the time were NI Akoustik Piano, Dimension LE, and DreamStation. The
project was pretty simple at this point, but I did have PSP VintageWarmer 2
strapped across the main mix bus, and a few PSP plug-ins inserted on the
Dimension and DreamStation tracks. I also had the Cakewalk linear phase EQ
inserted on the Dimension track, though it might have been bypassed at the
time of the crash.

Earlier in the day I'd also had a problem getting playback to happen at all
if any softsynths inserted in the Synth Rack were active. Ones inserted in
the FX bin were fine, though. (The project I was working on was an old one,
initially created before the Synth Rack existed, though I'd recently added a
few new synths in the Synth Rack in SONAR 6.2.1.) I never did figure out
why it wasn't working, and ended up bailing out and saving a MIDI file, then
inserting the synths freshly into that. I didn't put any FX bin synths in
the new version of the project. I'll have to keep my eyes open more for
problems in this are. Iniitally I thought it might be some plug-in
conflicts, which I do see from time to time, typically where a plug-in gets
a big noise spike and then audio stops. However, I removed all the audio
plug-ins from the project and was still having the playback problem on the
original project.

One other new feature observation:

MIDI Meters: I don't like these for most purposes. I could see where they
might be useful when you're tracking to make sure signal is flowing to the
right places. However, when I'm playing back, I couldn't care less what the
MIDI velocity levels are, and the clips already tell me which tracks have
content way more quickly than meters can. Not to mention that they feel
redundant with the softsynth's audio meters (I suppose that wouldn't be true
with multi-timbral synths with mix outputs, but I rarely use mix outputs on
multitimbral synths, generally preferring to mix in SONAR so I can use
separate plug-ins on separate sounds), and distract from seeing what the
audio meters are doing. So far I also haven't found a way to turn them off
without also turning off the track playback meters for audio tracks. I'd
really like the ability to disable these separately. I'm also not fond of
the signal present indicator at all, as it always feels like it is
overloading based on its location at the top (or right side) of the MIDI
meter. In fact, when I was having the playback problem mentioned above, I
was initially thinking something was overloading, thus causing the audio
stopped situation, but it was only showing me MIDI signal was present.

Well, that's it for the moment. Maybe I'll get more time to "play" later
this evening.

Rick
--
=======================================
Rick Paul
Closet Cowboy Music (ASCAP)
Web: www.RickPaul.info
MySpace: www.myspace.com/rickpaulmusic
=======================================
Bram Wheeler
2007-10-08 01:44:50 UTC
Permalink
I've used it for a few days now and have had about 7 crashes. No real
pattern I can put a name on, once it was a simple playback of a Real Guitar
track and nothing else

Once I turned a knob on Guitar Rig 2 - crash!

I'm sure all the techies are working feverishly so the first patch will
include more stability.

The new toys work with varying degrees of success, I've used Dimension LE so
much I ordered the upgrade tp Pro

Would I buy again? In a heart beat

Would I use Sonar 6.2.1 if I was rushed for time or had an audience. Oh
yeah, for now I would

But it'll get better - it always does

Brammer
Post by Neil Rutman
Anyone have any quality time with Sonar 7 yet. Would love to hear some
opinions.
Neil R
--
Neil Rutman
Executive Producer
Marathon Road Entertainment
"Music For Media"
www.marathonroadent.com
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